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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
0:49 The article – Endgame
4:14 The Endgame Genshin has
4:43 Commissions
7:21 Resin
9:39 Teapot
12:58 Weekly stuff
14:50 Bounties system is a perfect base for endgame content
18:10 Community reaction
19:25 Why the community thinks like that
19:49 Point B
22:18 Why people want endgame
26:35 Main point of rewards-endgame
27:10 The other reason people don’t want endgame
30:55 Why Hoyoverse doesn’t want to add endgame
33:00 The facts
34:39 Lack of Genshin endgame as marketing for other Hoyoverse games
36:00 Content creators as marketing for other Hoyoverse games
38:32 Other reasonings
40:45 Honkai poll
42:08 Playing multiple Gacha games
42:57 Genshin TCG
44:23 Game industry
47:22 I hope i’m wrong
49:23 Rest of Genshin game is mostly good
50:28 What to do about it
55:33 Outro
source
Wanted to add a few clarifications because I feel like there’s a few things I was a bit too tired to verbally explain properly :
-The idea that “genshin shouldn’t have endgame” is really frustrating to encounter when the game has clear and obvious incentives for you to log in every day (commissions and resin) but logging in once you’ve beaten abyss, whether by playing a lot or spending, feels like nothing more than a chore because there’s nothing to do.
-Genshin already has endgame systems, they’re just very flawed
-Players that care about endgame systems care because they like the game and want to play it, not because they want more rewards. Shitty rewards, or rewards that can only be used within the endgame system itself (i.e. if you were to do an endgame system similar to the potion event we got, an endgame reward could be a potion with a rarer effect you can only use within the system itself https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/A_Study_in_Potions), would be more than enough of an “incentive”.
-I don’t think them wanting you to play their other games is the ONLY possible explanation, it’s just the one I consider to be the most likely. I obviously don’t have insight into the inner workings of HYV so it’s very possible I’m wrong, and I really am hoping that’s the case.
-If you don’t care about endgame, that’s ok! Genshin has a large amount of non-repeatable content, and if that’s what you want to focus on I’m happy for you. Just understand that people who play the game for reasons different from yours will be disappointed with news like this.
-The part about content creators being a way for them to market their other games was in no way meant to be a criticism of content creators. Using sponsorships to get your game seen by potential customers is literally just how marketing works, and if a content creator actually likes the game, they usually don’t have a reason to turn it down. It was meant as a description of how HYV is really effective with their marketing for ZZZ, and how I’d probably react myself if I ended up taking a ZZZ sponsorship considering my own dissatisfaction with the lack of good endgame and my love for roguelike games.
-The game recommendations aren't really similar to genshin I just like those games and I want more people to play them so they make more games Madge
-Man I’m tired why did I read this at 7pm instead of when it came out this morning aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Zajef: Playing two gacha games at once… is a BAAAAD idea
Me: plays 5
I enjoy all your points and the break down of the dev answers and your thoughts reflect what I thought when I read through. I never saw that genshin was just an advertisement for hoyoverse's other game, nice revelation. I was definitely not surprised that these were the answers we got, as much as I wish for more, but I do hope this helps players shape how they spend their time on this game.
Knowing that there wont be much ahead outside of "extra stuff" and pretty characters puts me somewhat at ease but I do wish there was more combat content because the combat is what drew me in besides the pretty characters.
As someone who played Honkai from Oct 2018 until I got burned out from playing competitively on May 2020, I fully buy that HYV themselves believe that if they add combat related end game content it will add anxiety to the game. BUT.. and it's a very big BUT – it's not because end game content will inherently cause anxiety, it's because the way THEY designed it in Honkai, as well as in genshin was always made as a way to force you to pull on whatever new gacha characters they make.
It wasn't too bad at first – they would design level conditions that would favor the new characters, but it would switch. But then those conditions would never change, making it impossible to get ahead without pulling for the new characters.
Then they would design new mobs and bosses that made it IMPOSSIBLE without the new characters or new gear (remember the rift hounds?). It was really taxing.
Not to mention that in Honkai, simply clearing the levels wasn't good enough, you had to make it to the top 100 or top 15 in your group etc.
It's what burnt me out. That I had characters I loved playing or was attached to but the game made it impossible for me to play without losing.
So I think HYV is stuck thinking that this is the only way to design endgame combat content that they think there's no other way.
Personally, when I go back to Honkai every now and then I avoid the endgame. And in genshin I avoid it too because it causes me, personally, a lot of stress. But if others want to have fun with it, go ahead. But HYV needs to understand that the way they design endgame content is flawed too instead of just stating "it causes anxiety so no". I hope they reconsider.
i realized that those answers on GameSpot sound like how HoyoVerse answers the feedback/suggestion sent through the game options. Those are CUSTOMER SUPPORT agents answering the questions!!! I know because I have been sending them a lot before and I have worked as a CS for a different company.
THEY ARE NOT DEVS!!! JUST CUSTOMER SUPPORT AGENTS!! PROBABLY OUTSOURCED BY HOYOVERSE!!!
Another Endgame Content: Hangouts
If you need a game that, story/puzzle/exploration wise is just like Genshin without it being a gacha: literally just play any Legend of Zelda game. (The Sabzeruz Festival is literally just a smaller version of Majora's Mask. XD)
If you want a game similar im combat: IDK what to tell anyone. Genshin's combat is merely a means to an end for me (I love character-focused stuff, regardless of how I complete it) But the options have always been there.
Anyways great video!
Genshin is Hoyoverse rich unloved kid.
Is extremely challenging boss can be counted as endgame content? Speaking as non genshin player(me lol)
Hoyoverse: here's this unique open world gacha with element combinations in its combat and insane exploration and story quests
1. Story: new main story, side story, text story and event story
2. Exploration: new zones every other patch and chests and dungeons and achievements
3. Combat: Abyss and some events maybe. Events are easy but not permanent and Abyss is just 4 floors
I dont know why we at least don't have an Endless Mode or a Repeatble Scaled Coop Dungeon
They dont need crazy rewards either
Ex: Endless Mode: 60 primos up to wave 10 and then have 100 waves for self satisfaction and maybe gold
Coop Dungeon: dungeons with easy, hard, expert and insane modes that can change enemies. Repeatable and drops gold
Both have ALREADY been done too 😭. Just make it stay!
If genshin impact isnt combat focused game
Then why my default left klick on mouse is attacking ? Not interacting first ?
I also see it as a slap in the face to people who whale for characters. Since you can't undo constellations or refinements, the game is many many times easier for them and there is still no endgame content capable of handling C6 R5 characters. It makes you wonder what the point of pulling characters with combat-centric kits is, let alone spending money for them. If Ganyu can one-shot most enemies in the over world, what incentive is there to get constellations? Adding endgame combat content would actually increase their sales numbers and player count, if anything. And I find it hard to believe that with the hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue they can't find enough devs to work on it.
Much of the content you labeled as “end game” is actually “all game”. If you can do it at low levels like commissions, bounties, domains, bosses, resin, etc. it’s not true “end game”
Gosh, I really agree with everything you said.
Regarding spiral abyss & related content, it actually can be frustrating for some people. Not everyone knows how to build charas/teams well in order to clear such type of content but they want to clear it to get the primogem rewards. If they added content that could be combat oriented but also co-opable or have rewards that are not primogems then I dont think people should have an issue. Some will still have issues with it, but if they weren't selfish ppl, they would have no issues.
One of the most mature and nuanced takes I've seen. I'm Honkai player even before Genshin, and also have PGR currently, and this news is like "oh that's unfortunate, expected but eh still fine" kind of reaction. Sadge to be a competitive/meta player and only have Genshin as only game, that must suck.
Honestly this is the most thought out response I've heard
It would be fun if there was an endless wave of enemies for a fun gamemode with maybe a leaderboard to see who managed to get the highest score
I'm dissapointed but for an entirely different reason. Mihoyo doesn't trust the community they created. Genshin had a massive enthusiastic fandom that would diligently make fanart, memes, discussion threads, and theories to fill in the gaps in content and market the game constantly on behalf of Mihoyo. And instead of giving the community more to work with, they're sticking to manipulation and sussy business tactics.
They don't see players as a caring audience to partner with but people who should be scammed out of as much money as possible before they realize what's up. Like a manipulative spouse who thinks you'll leave if they treat you too well. In my eyes the community is still big but much more cynical and scattered than when I started in 2.1. And Mihoyo just confirmed that it's by design.
try all they want.. ill only play genshin and honkai rail
If it's any consolation, I started playing Tower of Fantasy and this time elected NOT to buy out for the primogem discount refresh (due to most of the new character releases not being superior to my current rosters).
As a new player who really liked the combat and theory crafting, this hurts to learn. I'm AR 49 and no challenge in combat does worry me. I think this made sure that I never pull on a weapon banner. If I only ever have 4 star weapons then I can hope it becomes a QoL Handicap that will save me primos.
I don't have anxiety from having the spiral abyss. I have anxiety because I'm constantly worrying about what to do if hoyo doesn't release an endgame where I get to use MY 30+ LEVEL 90 CHARACTERS WITH ARTIFACTS AND WEAPONS FULLY BUILT
Well if they're not developing new combat endgame, why not improve the abyss? Extra floors, weekly reset, daily bounties. Rewards don't even have to be primogems. Just make the reward beneficial for further combat e.g curated rolled artifact.
I don't think it's missing out on rewards the casuals are scared of because if it was then they would literally 100% each region as they come out so as to get enough primogems to get new characters. They are just gatekeeping genshin from getting to new heights because endgame is another aspect of the game they can ignore. And by ignoring they create this cycle of gatekeeping by not letting us players who want repeatable content.
I understand how the more hardcore players feel, but as an open world game, the thing that wories me the most is the fact that the puzles are getting easyer and the world content straight foward (world big mobs should be harder an with interesting mechanichs ex:BotW), I do think they need to invest into world exploration and hiden content achieves maby throw some achivments or bonus items into it, as far as the defenition of end game for grinding games… well thats not the reason for me to play a game in the genshin genre. Theres enough grinding in the materials, I do think that they could make it less repetitive, I'm not keen of the domain design to obtain materials.
Frankly if they invest in to world design and content creation (some tweaks mention above) I'm quite happy about it.
as a Genshin player since 1.0 who started playing Honkai after a few patches, you completely hit the nail on the head with this. great content as always Zajef.
There is so much untapped potential here and I understand why so many people are so disappointed. There is so many additions they could create that would breathe new life into the game. The difficultly could be lateral to the abyss and they don't have to be cycling every 2 weeks so people can do them in their own pace and time.
Lets get permanent domain like challenges that are as difficult as the abyss but require certain stratergies/reactions (say additional 500% overload damage) with level 200 enemies which heavily incentivies you to build different teams that utilise different reactions maybe with one time rewards.
Lets get difficult co-op content because its almost criminal they have neglected the co-op aspect of the game. When I first started playing I had a lot of fun inviting friends to go clear domains and bosses but now its competely pointless because you clear everything in under a minute by yourself.
Even spiral abyss has gotten less interesting as time went on. I remember the original abyss and how much fun that was trying to overcome that crazy stamina drain which made you think about bringing different characters to cleanse you of the debuff. They need to spice it up and throw different challenges in the abyss as well.
not really enjoy pvp content (i came from honkai and pgr and little….. tired), but that news really sucks. i hope they added some roguelike stuff like elisium from hi3, it soooo good: the different weather and debuffs, its interesting
42:31 "Playing 2 gacha games js a bad idea"
Me, who plays multiple gacha at the same time: Sweating
Honkai took 3 years to get Elysian Realm. But since it's not an interesting argument coz compering different games is "bullshit" even though it's made by the same company. It will take time for them to add a definite end game content. And one thing both games have in common, no balancing of new and old characters. What they release is the final product they will not change it unless it affects the effects animation or is a indefinite bug. One thing you can hope for Genshin is that it really doesn't get too boring doing the same thing all over for at least 3 more years, I can say that confidently coz I'm playing 3 Accounts all 3 are AR60 with almost identical amount of investment.
Just don't spend anymore if you think the devs don't listen to you or anyone. Just play or take a break. Come back when you feel like it.
I don't think there will ever be a combat related endgame in genshin, from a business standpoint there's no point for them to invest resources into something that will only benefit a minority of the playerbase (as you said). Speaking about business I think their marketing strategy is amazing by making a solution to the problems they create in each of their games. HI3 didnt have the amazing open world that GI does but HI3 has better endgame and the characters are more intricate and ZZ might have a good rouge like mode and better replay ability. It reminds me of the time apple removed the headphone jack from the iphone so that they could sell the adapter for it. They can sell the problem and the solution.
The Spiral Abyss is one of the most effective ways [for] players [to] test out their party composition and combat strength. If we design another type of permanent endgame that is similar to the Spiral Abyss, it might end up creating excessive anxiety for our players-not everyone is interested in Musk Reef.
an action rpg not adding more combat permanent content is wild
Agree with almost everything that is being said here but best combat system in any game ever? I don’t understand that one. I think that still goes to Sekiro and with barely any contest.
Completely disagree with "endgame should give minor rewards" mindset. Players who do more things should get more opportunities to get what they want, and it's always better to have more opportunities to get what you want. Genshin isn't a mmorpg with hardcore content, you can reach endgame numbers by playing it casually. Just don't add timer so that it wouldn't matter what you're using to clear said content.
the thing is, mihoyo is a business company, and as a company they gotta cater to majority of their customers, which are casuals that cant clear abyss even with stacked lvl 90 chars, we endgame players are just a small fraction of the population
What's funny to me is all the talk about wanting endgame when we aren't even at THE END OF THE GAME. We have 3 nations and more subsections (chasm,dragonspine etc) left to be released then AND ONLY THEN if there isn't replayable endgame content will I switch sides to how everyone else feels.
In my opinion, many people who are against endgame are against it because they assume primogems will be locked behind that, just like 1200 primos are locked behind abyss every month.
You talk about how Mihoyo thrives on anxiety and how there is no "excessive anxiety", but excessive anxiety can make players leave the game, which they don't want. I have a friend who stopped playing Honkai because he couldn't keep up with the grind that the end game content requires.
Your theory for the lack of endgame content makes sense, but I have a different one. I think they limit the time you can spend on the game every day because they want people who don't have a lot of time to still be able to do everything in the game, and not feel like they're missing out on free stuff. Again, this assumes that a new endgame content would reward the player with primogems.
Otherwise I agree with many of the other points.
Absolutely gorgeous BASED takes . My man.
Re: endgame opportunity costs – I think, the real counterargument to that is not that making some improvements would be cheap enough to be negligible, it's that making improvements would yield returns, so it's not that limited resources would be spent on endgame over [thigamajig] some player might want instead, it's that having a good endgame would be another avenue of increasing the available budget and the resources pool that comes from it.
Honestly, thinking more on this. My days in Genshin are numbered or at least significantly reduced.
I have been able to 36* the Abyss for a long time, but now I see no reason to. I can complete all the significant content–the quests–with my current characters. I see no reason to log in regularly. I can just do whatever the latest content drop is and log off
I actually believe this is their plan. As you stated they have other games you can play with a more robust end game but they also pay models.
ALSO, when you do return to Genshin for content drops… I think they believe since people have not been grinding wishes that FOMO will lead to people opening their wallets to cover the gap. They are also correct.
This is sad. Genshin is basically a single player game with a beginning and an end. I guess at least I know it now. It could have been much more.
You make a lot of good points, out of all opinions I've heard yours is the most comprehensive. But there is one big issue with all of this that nobody seems to recongnise. "There is nothing to do at endgame" is just a lie. HoYoverse release new characters every 3 weeks, curretntly there are around 60 characters, and these new characters introduce new team comps that you can play over and over again in Abyss. The more characters there are, the more character combinations there are, which is essentiatlly an expansion of the combat system. And the Abyss difficulty is tuned in a way so that it doesn't require exessive investment in characters in order to clear it (including blessings that are tuned for new characters) which means players can pull new characters (and spend money) without doubts that they won't be able to clear Abyss / won't have enough resources to level them uip.
Now, there are definetely ways to argue this. The point is — this is the major part of Genshin endgame related to combat, this has to be addressed and I am honestly surprised that many content creators miss it and some even say "you clear Abyss once every 2 weeks and done" which is sooo frustrating to hear. They say they enjoy the combat system —then why don't they play the game and enjoy it??? Don't get me wrong, there are reasons they wouldn't enjoy playing Abyss over and over again, but they have to adress it otherwise it sounds hypocrytical.
My biggest concern is if significant combat related rewards become locked behind more non-combat related limited-time "chores".
As someone who enjoys minmaxing combat this would feel bad. So if they decide to focus on alternate endgames, then separating the reward categories would be nice, so everyone's happy
A glorified ad lmao